i've been holding this back for days now, but sometimes the discussion on the vagrant cafe reminds me of some lines from a play Plato wrote:
Socrates says to Gorgias: "You, Gorgias, like myself, have had great experience of disputations, and you must have observed, I think, that they do not always terminate in mutual edification, or in the definition by either party of the subjects which they are discussing; but disagreements are apt to arise-somebody says that another has not spoken truly or clearly; and then they get into a passion and begin to quarrel, both parties conceiving that their opponents are arguing from personal feeling only and jealousy of themselves, not from any interest in the question at issue. And sometimes they will go on abusing one another until the company at last are quite vexed at themselves for ever listening to such fellows. Why do I say this? Why, because I cannot help feeling that you are now saying what is not quite consistent or accordant with what you were saying at first about rhetoric. And I am afraid to point this out to you, lest you should think that I have some animosity against you, and that I speak, not for the sake of discovering the truth, but from jealousy of you. Now if you are one of my sort, I should like to cross-examine you, but if not I will let you alone. And what is my sort? you will ask. I am one of those who are very willing to be refuted if I say anything which is not true, and very willing to refute any one else who says what is not true, and quite as ready to be refuted as to refute-I for I hold that this is the greater gain of the two, just as the gain is greater of being cured of a very great evil than of curing another. For I imagine that there is no evil which a man can endure so great as an erroneous opinion about the matters of which we are speaking and if you claim to be one of my sort, let us have the discussion out, but if you would rather have done, no matter-let us make an end of it."
i try to be of that sort...i would rather be refuted and learn what is true and right than make my point and be utterly wrong.
unfortunately, i notice that many or most would rather just "be right," whether they can prove it or not, whether they're proved wrong or not. again, i realize i'm in the minority here, though.
anyway, there's that.
in other news, i had about a week where i was just crazy tired. got a bit done here and there but had a hell of a time at it...i think some of it was brought on by some stuff last week that happened...anyway, only time will tell but i think i'm back in gear now. worked on the site and did some writing last night, so that's good. now if only those damned Cubs would win more.
listening right now to a Paste Magazine sampler. also lately i've listened to David Bowie's Ziggy Stardust, DJ Shadow, the new album by The Blamed....nd The Yeah Yeah Yeah's.
also, thanks to a couple of you for the encouraging comments. i do read them, just like people do read this. :-) --joel
Socrates says to Gorgias: "You, Gorgias, like myself, have had great experience of disputations, and you must have observed, I think, that they do not always terminate in mutual edification, or in the definition by either party of the subjects which they are discussing; but disagreements are apt to arise-somebody says that another has not spoken truly or clearly; and then they get into a passion and begin to quarrel, both parties conceiving that their opponents are arguing from personal feeling only and jealousy of themselves, not from any interest in the question at issue. And sometimes they will go on abusing one another until the company at last are quite vexed at themselves for ever listening to such fellows. Why do I say this? Why, because I cannot help feeling that you are now saying what is not quite consistent or accordant with what you were saying at first about rhetoric. And I am afraid to point this out to you, lest you should think that I have some animosity against you, and that I speak, not for the sake of discovering the truth, but from jealousy of you. Now if you are one of my sort, I should like to cross-examine you, but if not I will let you alone. And what is my sort? you will ask. I am one of those who are very willing to be refuted if I say anything which is not true, and very willing to refute any one else who says what is not true, and quite as ready to be refuted as to refute-I for I hold that this is the greater gain of the two, just as the gain is greater of being cured of a very great evil than of curing another. For I imagine that there is no evil which a man can endure so great as an erroneous opinion about the matters of which we are speaking and if you claim to be one of my sort, let us have the discussion out, but if you would rather have done, no matter-let us make an end of it."
i try to be of that sort...i would rather be refuted and learn what is true and right than make my point and be utterly wrong.
unfortunately, i notice that many or most would rather just "be right," whether they can prove it or not, whether they're proved wrong or not. again, i realize i'm in the minority here, though.
anyway, there's that.
in other news, i had about a week where i was just crazy tired. got a bit done here and there but had a hell of a time at it...i think some of it was brought on by some stuff last week that happened...anyway, only time will tell but i think i'm back in gear now. worked on the site and did some writing last night, so that's good. now if only those damned Cubs would win more.
listening right now to a Paste Magazine sampler. also lately i've listened to David Bowie's Ziggy Stardust, DJ Shadow, the new album by The Blamed....nd The Yeah Yeah Yeah's.
also, thanks to a couple of you for the encouraging comments. i do read them, just like people do read this. :-) --joel
posted by Joel @ 8/14/2002 07:19:00 AM
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